tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post53688365610179019..comments2023-10-24T06:27:35.991-07:00Comments on Rambling Outside the Box: The “Science” behind “Bonking”Drs. Cynthia and Davidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16081685734249334402noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post-76815341700960851102011-08-05T07:51:16.716-07:002011-08-05T07:51:16.716-07:00Hi Guys, I wanted to share with you my trials runn...Hi Guys, I wanted to share with you my trials running long on low carb. Interesting results:<br /><br />http://kellysayswhat.blogspot.com/2011/08/got-sugar.htmlKellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17731072564563999110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post-25176206452080695292011-06-17T10:17:59.483-07:002011-06-17T10:17:59.483-07:00Thanks, Kelly, for the additional details. We sta...Thanks, Kelly, for the additional details. We stand corrected regarding your training. In 2001, you clearly had it together except for the bonking problem. Presumably you could have avoided bonking then as a high-carb runner in the usual way by consuming more carbs during the run (assuming that they wouldn't cause serious stomach issues for you), or simply running at a more sustainable pace. But the low-carb approach should also work if you're fully keto-adapted. <br /><br />It's curious that you're also a barefoot runner. It does seem that the same people that are open to low-carb running also tend to be minimalist footwear people. David only goes barefoot for short distances and runs in Vibram Fivefingers, for all distances over a couple of miles--he hasn't built up enough abrasion (and splinter) resistance to be willing to do the longer distances barefoot.<br /><br />As to Mark Sisson and the paleo community's hangups about "chronic cardio," I wouldn't worry too much. The chronic cardio message comes, I think, more from a bias resulting from the fact that many members of the Paleo community are also members of the Crossfit community who tend to believe that resistance exercise is superior to endurance exercise for long-term health. Mark Sisson's personal issues with "chronic cardio" grew out of his (pre-Paleo) experience as an elite high-carb marathoner who suffered significant health problems. Obviously, we're kind of biased the other direction, and tend to believe that endurance exercise is generally good for you and will probably help keep you healthier longer (not that strength training isn't also valuable). You can, of course, "hurt" yourself doing "too much" of most anything, but our notions of what "too much" really is with respect to endurance exercise have definitely been getting stretched quite a bit! There is a "well-known" phenomenon that most competitive endurance athletes burn out (peak and start to slow) after 10 years or so. We speculate that this could actually be more due to cumulative damage from their high-carb fueling strategies than from the "chronic cardio" itself. In any case, doing most endurance training at easy to moderate pace is probably healthier overall.Drs. Cynthia and Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081685734249334402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post-55804013342477022162011-06-16T10:17:04.538-07:002011-06-16T10:17:04.538-07:00Thanks for your reply and interest. To give you a ...Thanks for your reply and interest. To give you a little more background on my previous marathons, I typically trained at about 40-50 miles/wk (about 5-6 days/wk) with a long run once/wk graduated up to 20 mile long runs. My peak mileage weeks were around 50-60 miles/wk and I would taper for 2-3 weeks. My marathon PR was my first at flat Chicago in 2001 at 3:11. My slowest marathon was my last in November in hilly Nashville (flying monkey) at 4:29. This time was not only affected by the hills, but also by my persistance to not wear shoes. The roads were rougher than I imagined and sole sensitivity was really an issue in latter half of the marathon. But even in my PR run, I still bonked, meaning that my pace slowed by about 2 minutes/mile in those last 6 miles. For me, the half marathon distance is preferrable as I've never experienced bonking and can actually race the whole distance.<br /><br />This year, I suffered an ab pull in January and I've just started back to running after the muscle healed. During that time off, I've been reading the internet and books on low carb/paleo. I'm curious about your perspective on the paleo community and their apparent dislike for long distance running. The best example that comes to mind is Mark Sisson's chronic cardio messages.Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17731072564563999110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post-21640752144770502492011-06-16T03:37:51.622-07:002011-06-16T03:37:51.622-07:00Kelly: Glad we've prompted you to experiment ...Kelly: Glad we've prompted you to experiment too! Feel free to e-mail us privately to discuss your progress and results. A couple of suggestions: first, while we do understand that too much training can be a bad thing, you seem to be a bit on the light side. A good rule of thumb used by ultramarathoners is that you can run as far in a day as you have recently trained per week. Thus, if you are training for a marathon, you ought to be doing 25+ miles per week. Most of that can be in relatively small doses and at a modest effort (much slower than race pace), although most trainers will recommend weekly progressively longer runs and at least some faster runs. Putting in the miles seems to be necessary to get the legs "used to" the distance. Part of that is converting some fast-twitch muscles into slow-twitch muscles--something to be avoided if you're a sprinter or competitive weight-lifter, but desirable for long-distance running. Without the mileage, some of what you experience as "bonking" may just be under-trained muscles getting tired. <br /><br />Good luck on the track! I think we would go stir-crazy trying to run 150 laps of anything! You may also have trouble due to the monotony on your legs (same motions over and over). If you decide to try it, make sure you have a good audio book on your I-Pod and some automated lap counting... As to fasting beforehand, if you are really keto-adapted, I don't think it makes much difference one way or the other in that since you are depending on stored fat anyway, the timing of meals becomes absolutely non-critical. Personally, I still prefer to start a really long run with a hearty breakfast. It may be just psychological, but it at least gives me a feeling of starting out with the tank full, so to speak, while starting out fasting tends to encourage immediate energy conservation and perhaps a slower initial pace.Drs. Cynthia and Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081685734249334402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post-89968756060511527342011-06-16T03:37:30.906-07:002011-06-16T03:37:30.906-07:00Hi SteveQ. Sorry I haven't visited your blog ...Hi SteveQ. Sorry I haven't visited your blog much- not much blog reading or writing going on. I enjoyed your review of "MyPlate" though.<br /><br />I think that most people do not distinguish the terms "bonking" and "hitting the wall" even though you consider them to have different meanings. When the liver runs low on glycogen and can no longer maintain blood sugar levels, that would be a pretty serious bonk, though pretty rare really. Most people just don't run that hard. When muscle glycogen is low, you'll not want to run as hard, or maybe walk the hills instead of running them, so as to conserve what you've still got. It's like soccer players at the end of the match- they've been running and sprinting for at least 90 minutes, but they can keep on doing it even though their glycogen levels when measured are quite low (but never zero). They will probably be very cautious about all out sprints though in that condition. So maybe hitting the wall in your view is low muscle glycogen.<br /><br />I disagree about the replenishment rates though. I saw one paper where they measured muscle glycogen replenishment- about half of the glycogen was restored in 5 hours (the longest they measured), with no sign of the rate slowing. So it doesn't take days. There are other consequences like muscle damage or fatigue that can mimic glycogen depletion.<br /><br />I think the main point is that in the carb restricted condition, the muscles preferentially burn fat at all levels of effort so as to conserve glycogen, while in the high carb condition, the muscles preferentially burn glycogen until they reach the same quantity as the low carb condition. The problem is that without training the body to use fat as fuel, you'll just run out of glycogen earlier because you're using it up so fast.<br /><br />We agree that both high and low carb can work for running endurance distances. We also note that (1) both can work equally well for racing (for the moment, we're assuming weight-stable runners for whom weight loss or gain is not a serious issue), and (2) low carb can have real advantages for a number of reasons: reduced fuel needs during an event, even energy, faster recovery, reduced inflammation and free radicals, better general health (as measured by biomarkers and symptoms), less overall stress on the body.Drs. Cynthia and Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081685734249334402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post-49393972752899732922011-06-15T10:36:47.103-07:002011-06-15T10:36:47.103-07:00Oops, should have checked my math before posting, ...Oops, should have checked my math before posting, 100 laps is 25 miles. So let's say 150 laps for 37.5 miles. That should adequately test the bonking hypothesis.<br /><br />KellyKellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17731072564563999110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post-75071780265308444912011-06-15T10:16:51.510-07:002011-06-15T10:16:51.510-07:00@ David,
Thanks for providing the link to this p...@ David, <br /><br />Thanks for providing the link to this post from Jimmy Moore's podcast with Dr. Phinney. I'm stoked that other runners such as yourself and Peter can run long distances on a low carb high fat diet, and perceive to have the benefit of not bonking. And I'm inspired now to do some self-experimentation. I'm thinking about tracking my macronutrient consumption for about a month (with a goal to be low carb 50g, moderate protein 100 g and high fat 150 g) while moderately running (my typical 3-4 hrs/wk easy pace, 9-10 min/mi). After documenting the nutrition for a month, I'll run 100 laps around a track on water only, easy pace 10-12 min/mi. I've never run more than marathon distance, so I'm really curious how I'll do since I have a history of hitting the wall in marathons when I consumed a high carb diet. I'm even contemplating a short fast before the long run, like skipping dinner the night before (about 1000 calories), then running 40 miles the next morning, so that my stomach is empty.<br /><br />KellyKellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17731072564563999110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post-10872657515793576692011-06-15T09:48:31.097-07:002011-06-15T09:48:31.097-07:00@SteveQ, I think your Tarahumara example is simila...@SteveQ, I think your Tarahumara example is similar to the Ethiopian example. I'm not a fan of high mileage training, so I prefer to regulate the fat-burning through diet instead.Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17731072564563999110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post-48494405732165045862011-06-15T09:04:48.279-07:002011-06-15T09:04:48.279-07:00I've written dozens of times on this subject. ...I've written dozens of times on this subject. Bonking and hitting the wall are two different things; bonking happens when you run out of liver glycogen and is easily reversible and hitting the wall is when you run out of muscle glycogen (and can take days to replenish). If you run at a pace that will not deplete your muscles before the end of the run, you don't have to worry about hitting the wall. <br /><br />High-carb and low-carb both work. The Tarahumara run on about 85% carbs, Iannos Kouros ran 6 days on 98% carbs (according to Noakes in "Lore of Running"). Personally, I think which method you choose is really a matter of whether you're running to lose fat or running to race.SteveQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16943650844671498074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post-57760361072447474412011-05-02T19:50:25.548-07:002011-05-02T19:50:25.548-07:00Hi Cynthia!
You are correct about the advantage o...Hi Cynthia!<br /><br />You are correct about the advantage of not eating. One gal on Saturday did end up getting nauseous because she was stuffing herself all the time to keep up. <br />This does not take into account all the metabolic "conflicts" and inflammation caused by the ups & downs of sugar and energy. <br /><br />Dr. Phinney can eloquently describe the ketogenic adaptation.. when adapted the production of ketone bodies increases like about tenfold from a carb abundant state as the live basically switches back to its natural function of producing ketone bodies and glucose instead of dealing with toxic levels of glucose and fructose etc. and d converting them into fats/triglycerides as one of a multitude of mechanisms the body uses to get blood sugar under control pronto....interestingly enough again, it is insulin that controls Ketone body productions and why T1 diabetics can't go completely ketogenic because they will end up going into Ketoacidosis which is also toxic... as far as saturated fats...yes, I agree that animal fats have varying amounts of saturated, unsaturated and a touch of poly unsaturated fats/oils and coconut oil is the new "PC" saturated fat .... according to Dr. Phinney once ketoadapted saturated fat becomes the preferred fuel. From the anthropological studies Dr. Phinney and others had revisted recently accounts of physical prowess of people like the Eskimo, Inuit and Plains Indians, all of which were ketoadapted, are the stuff of legend. They hardly ate but when they did they feasted on fatty foods.<br /><br />I guess my point as an empiricist is that with a high fat, moderate protein diet the ability to self regulate food intake (i.e. the French Paradox) come naturally because of stabilized blood sugar via ketone body production and plenty of release of free fatty acids to be used as metabolites. <br /><br />Keep up the great works. I am going to refer athletes to this blog post so they can get an explanation from a scientist / ultrarunners perspective.<br /><br />CheerS!<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00591361568952607663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post-7355991233455552772011-05-02T17:25:49.053-07:002011-05-02T17:25:49.053-07:00Really fascinating Peter. The reduced need for fo...Really fascinating Peter. The reduced need for food seems like a real advantage compared to people busy trying to keep themselves fed while running, and sometimes suffering from nausea as a result. When you say saturated fat, are you talking about coconut oil, butter, or what? Most animal fats are a mixture of unsaturated and saturated fat.<br /><br />Have you ever checked for urine ketones? I saw elevated levels once after a long run early on when we were first going low carb, but generally don't see them. I guess that's a good sign- they're being used instead of dumped.<br /><br />CynthiaDrs. Cynthia and Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16081685734249334402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post-67380173033050925262011-05-02T00:12:04.307-07:002011-05-02T00:12:04.307-07:00Hi again!
To corroborate David's experiences ...Hi again!<br /><br />To corroborate David's experiences here is a typical fat training run I did Saturday, May 30, 2011:<br /><br />Ran "The Canyons" with several female runners Saturday...out and back from Michigan Bluff to Last Chance and back for 26+ miles of either climbing or descending on technical trails.....we were out there for 8+ hours and my total calories ingested during the run: 38 calories (2 VESPA Ultra-Concentrates) both taken at well at Deadwood....no bonking, no feeling depleted and was not starving when we finished and did not actually eat anything for a few more hours. No feeling sick either.<br /><br />This is consistent and similar to other training runs I have done on only VESPA salt and water for durations lasting over 12 hours and allows me to run a 100 on approximately 2000 calories of ingested food and drink for a 100 miler (Leadville 2009).<br /><br />My diet is 60-70% fat in terms of calories with another 20-30% from protein. Much of the fat is saturated fat. What this means is my appetite self-regulates and I end up eating a lot less calorie-wise because I am ketoadapted so burning fat most of the time. Properly executed training and dieting to burn fat as the primarly fuel source is a game-changer.<br /><br />Cheers!<br /><br />PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00591361568952607663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-981032524188235145.post-36570708385656940112011-04-26T21:25:21.088-07:002011-04-26T21:25:21.088-07:00Hi Cynthia & David!
Thanks for the wonderful ...Hi Cynthia & David!<br /><br />Thanks for the wonderful post....I and Dr. Stephen Phinney, MD, PhD are going to be doing a seminar at ZR on June 1....hope you can attend to here one of the experts in this field speak about the science. Please e-mail me.<br /><br />Cheers!<br /><br />Peter (the VESPA guy)Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00591361568952607663noreply@blogger.com